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Sunday, February 05, 2006

The Case for a Sustainable 12DailyPRO

There's no shortage of people who rave about 12DailyPro and there's an even greater number of people who are either skeptical or 100% certain there's "no way" it can work. The latter are convinced there is no possibility other than it being a ponzi scheme.

Admittedly, at a glance, it certainly seems like the latter are correct. I mean who the heck can pay out "12% per day" and keep it up indefinitely? Well, welcome to the world of marketing folks. If you're here, you're here to learn, so do your best to keep an open mind.

I'm not asking you, or anyone else, to believe that 12DailyPro was NOT a ponzi, or that it was even sustainable long term. Instead, what I'm asking you to do is to LEARN from the ideas I'm about to present to you. This is to help you think in new ways, to think analytically, rather than
like a native who thinks that this "fire" must be from "the gods.

Point #1 - Earn 12% Per Day.

It's been said before: They pay 12% on your principle, BUT they TAKE your principle from the start and you don't get it back. You only get the 12% earnings per day back which comes out to something like 3.6% per day PROFIT. Subtract Stormpay fees and the time from Day 12 to Day 17 (or 19) when your returns are "pending" and it comes out to something like 2.32%. So 12DailyPro is only on the hook for 3.6% per day.

Point #2 - They Don't GIVE 12% Per Day. It Must Be Earned.

With 350,000 people in the program, don't underestimate the amount of people who either FORGET to do their daily surfing, or go away and don't have a computer to use, etc. There can be any number of reasons why a person doesn't autosurf on a given day and all mean that 12DailyPro is not always paying out to the max.

Point #3 - They Sell Advertising.

Even I was about to purchase some. Let's see...350,000 PROVEN BIG SPENDERS....PROVEN AFFILIATES.... TRAINED TO WATCH ADS EVERYDAY. Hmmmm, how much would you pay to get at a list like that? Forget lazy thinking, "But that's AUTOSURFING, it's the WORSE kind of advertising. People can just run it then walk away. True, but I don't. When I sit down to use my computer, I'm sitting down to use my computer, period. So I start the autosurf and then go about my business answering emails, etc. Every time a new ad shows, it pops to the top screen and I actually see it. Out of 350,000 people, I'm confident a lot of others are seeing it. And as I said above, we are a 350,000 strong list of big money spenders who know how to get referrals and are trained to watch ads everyday.

Point #4 - Some People Just Can't Follow the Rules.

Some people just aren't happy making $2300+ profit every 12 days. So they try to open up multiple accounts which is against Terms of Service and eventually they lose their investment. If they are willing to break the rules, it's due to greed, and that greed never lets them cash out early...they are usually LET IT RIDE type people. Anyways, when those people get caught, they lose their accounts, end of story. If just 100 people out of 350,000 get caught with $12,000 each month, that's $1,200,000/month 12DailyPro has extra to fulfill their obligations.

Point #5 - Venture Capital.

If a company such as 12DailyPro had begun, theoretically, with $2,000,000 venture capital (perhaps they get it from fleeing other failed ventures, who knows) and that money is invested in medium risk investments, that can help fund any shortcomings in the earliest days. When you think about it, a company like 12DailyPro could, theoretically, operate at a loss of $50,000 per month for 40 months with that kind of capital. Or at a loss of $100,000 per month for 20 months...theoretically of course. I'm just giving you something to think about.

NOW, If that weren't enough....

While I think it COULD be enough if advertising sales were strong and it was managed very well, but as I see it, there would be almost no margin of error. It would be like dancing on the edge of a blade and even a slight error could send it toppling. So then what would make it super-incredible sustainable even after, let's postulate, operating at a loss of $50,000/mo for 10 months, but having developed a HUNGRY list of 350,000 LOYAL, BIG-SPENDING, AFFILIATE AD-WATCHERS? What would make this not only WORK, but explode into a barely conceivable amount of growth and money....?

Point #6 - Make It All Private and Unveil a PHASE TWO.

Phase 1, "Earn 12% per day" becomes private. Those already in get to continue doing the same - even possibly at a lesser, but still acceptable percentage like 8% per day. Since payments were always on time and 8% is still an unrivalled return then few, if any, would complain. But now all of those "CHARTER MEMBERS" are ACTIVATED....they are turned into an ACTIVE sales force of 350,000 people.

I keep emphasizing that these 350k+ people have shown a propensity towards big spending, towards risky behavior, towards getting others to sign up, and towards watching ads for their reward. Just imagine offering such a group 40%-50% commission for any referrals to PHASE 2 advertising packages.

And just who do you think will be watching those ads? THE CHARTER MEMBERS. And maybe the non-charter members who buy advertising through PHASE 2 will be offered a DISCOUNT on their ad package if they just watch 12 ads per day. Are you getting this now.


Quite often we act shocked or surprised when things turn out other than expected. To buffer the shock, the easiest thing is to blame or lash out at someone. It requires more effort to reflect and certainly not everyone even knows how, or that there is such a thing as reflection. Just pleasure, pain...suffer, blame. But we can try things like looking to nature for answers and solutions to our confusion and problems.

In this case, I pondered the transformation of a butterfly. In many cases, companies like 12DailyPro are not intrinsically evil or deceptive. They just fail to build a proper cocoon and so the transformation never takes place.

Just something to think about... :-)
By the way, check out the 12DailyPro Madness Blog!

Warning! Do not click the picture!

denmark, mohammed cartoons, danish, free speech

Sam Freedom

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manic_depressive_1 said...

Thank you for putting numbers to the 12DailyPro puzzle. It presents a much more believable picture, compared to the sensationalised media arguments of earning 3000% annualised return on investment.

As for your point #6, it's called 12 Daily Pro, which implies earning 12% daily. 8% over 12 days means a return of 96% (loss). Of course, they could always change the program such that they would get a return of 12% plus their original investment (so, basically 1% daily for 12 days). Of course, this is all speculation of what might have been.

I like your analogy of a butterfly's transformation. The butterfly has many predators, even more so as a growing caterpillar. Stormpay is like the hand that fed 12DailyPro, that eventually decided to squash them. The decision to use Stormpay was probably 12DailyPro's ultimate mistake.

I have never trusted Stormpay myself, as I found their business practices shady and unethical. If 12DailyPro is guilty, then Stormpay is liable as well for letting it go on for as long as it did.

Sam Freedom said...

Hi MD1,

There's some great conversation about this going on at Auto Surf Central Cafe

Regarding point #6...that they call it 12DailyPRO is pure marketing. As I said, full disclosure shows that actual earnings are 3.6% per day gross.

While the company may have started out with the name 12DailyPro to play on the 12% theme, that doesn't oblige them to maintain 12%. Due to the nature of the business, if they simply said, "Listen folks, here's how much you stand to make in Phase 2 but in order to make it work better, we're lowering Phase 1 payouts to 8%.

The name of the company is symbolic and independent of any agreement the customer base forms with the management.

Point is, it isn't necessarily a needed step, but to make Phase 2 work even better and ensure longevity, a roll back to 8% would seem awfully welcome by the members. Especially knowing they were getting paid on time all along and could rely up on it.

Thanks for writing.


Michael said...


I just found your blog somewhere along the line while researching Mike Filsaime and Butterfly Marketing. I like the fact that you shoot people straight and don't pull any punches! If only there was a greater proliferation of such honesty and candor with internet marketing. Which brings me to my question today: Is it just my perception, or is the majority of the 'big money' in online marketing coming from selling the 'tools' of the business, rather than practicing what is taught in various niche markets. (I.E., the prospector in the gold rush vs. the guy selling the picks and shovels)...

Looking forward to your reply!

Sam Freedom said...

Hi Michael,

Welcome to the blog. :-)

You can succeed anywhere you want if you maintain the right attitude. Opportunities are not limited to any one area, they are everywhere. When you apply the ideas of men like Napoleon Hill, and educate yourself with financial ideas of men like Robert Kiyosaki, then you can be selling in niches or selling the tools of marketers and you'll do alright.

Mike Filsaime is an anomaly. People can achieve his results but it would come not from knowing what he knows, but from BEING like him. The way he IS has made him appealing to a network of marketers who have all joint ventured regularly.

Most important to remember is that it is all just a show. No matter how seriously anyone seems to be, it is all just a show. Excuse me, occasionally, an exception appears but I often refer to something acclaimed marketer Jo Han Mak once openly stated in a video interview:

People buy on emotion then rationalize it later. And the outright truth is unappealing to people who have been steadily trained to be good consumers:

The Makers of Modern Schooling

Have a look at that and then we can continue this if you like, but to recap, opportunity can be found anywhere and the key really is to cultivate a positive attitude.

Thanks for your question.
ps. I'd find it interesting to know exactly where you came across this blog in your research.

Michael said...


Thanks for the link. I saw that on another post you had (I spent the last 24 hours reading your entire blog). I ran across your name while researching Mike Filsaime on a link at howtocorp. It was a reply to some lady who had issues with Mike, and I said, "who the heck is Sam Freedom???". So then I did a google search and found out you were the coolest guy on the planet (LOL). That was very interesting because I have been researching Brad Fallon, Brad Callon, Willie and the others and was following that 'contest' until a few months ago. I've used Brad's SEO techniques some success on two of my own niche sites, but google is the last to come on board, so to speak. I figure that is where the real traffic will start pouring in.

Thanks again for your honest 'no bull' approach. It's very refreshing.

Anonymous said...

It's a conspiracy!
12DailyPro and Stormpay planned the whole thing.
Think about it... all the delays and inconsistent statements by both sides.
just a thought.

Sam Freedom said...


Thanks again for your kind words. Bottom line is that we're no different than any other creature in that there are bigger things that would like to eat us.

Best to align with a very Big Fish and hang onto its fins until we're strong enough to swim into deeper waters.

This latest fiasco has been fascinating.

And ANONYMOUS...I, too, thought maybe 12DailyPRO and Stormpay were in cahoots, but I think 12DailyPRO is the much bigger player and Stormpay realized it was about to be out-skanked and pulled the plug.

Strangely enough, I suspect Stormpay will turn out to be the lesser of two evils and something of an ironic unsung hero. Just wait and see.

Lotsa Free Stuff on the Sam Freedom Home Page

Anonymous said...

To Sam Freedom: You have a great mind! You are one of the few that dig deeper into the issue.

I believe that both companies, StormPay & 12DailyPro, are crooks. StormPay's NetIBA certification process is a joke and its fees are outrageous. But at least it is up front about the charges. And 12DailyPro... (i don't think it's necessary to list why).

I am surprised that so many people still buy the lies from Charis (12DailyPro's owner); you should read the praises/discussions in 12 Daily Pro... so pathetic.

Alan Manuel said...

Promoting my blog again:
(Ponzi? Autosurf) lalalalala....

NetIBA is one weird beast BTW. To call themselves "The Internet Authority" feels like hubris to me. The 'Net's too big for anything to be an authority on it. Like I say in my blog, the nearest thing we have to an Internet Authority would be Google, and even Google would never claim that.

Anyway, somehow in all the heated arguments about 12DP and StormPay, it seems people have forgotten the little trouble that 12DP had with E-gold. In fact, I believe it was that trouble that forced them to use StormPay in the first place. Has anyone investigated E-gold? Could E-gold have suspected first, and StormPay just too stupid to see it immediately?

I would disagree on a sustainable 12DP (see my blog for a logical treatment). The only conceivable way I can find for a sustainable Autosurf program would be if the viewers have a NET LOSS. Advertising? I think Google has better advertising than any autosurf could get - more exposure, targeted so people don't get pissed off at your advertising, etc. etc. Sustainability doesn't strike me as even possible.

Sam Freedom said...

Been a while since I got around to responding to this thread, but here's the fact that YOU MUST CONSIDER when formulating such things.

Like any ordinary thinker, you compare Google advertising to Autosurf advertising as if it were oranges to oranges.

Not only do they appeal to different people as in some people can wrap their minds around Google and play around in there all day with Adwords campaigns. While some people can only comprehend autosurf or traffic exchange advertisement.

There are REAL people viewing BOTH. And, in my experience, those in the autosurf and traffic exchanges are those in my marketing subculture who are looking to make extra income and work from home. Some of those are on Google, too, but you also get a lot of incidental traffic on Google that can burn your budget out in no time.

Now think about it! I'm not trying to be RIGHT! I'm trying to be HELPFUL...that's what this blog is for, not so I can wave my you know what around proudly claiming how GREAT or RIGHT I am. I don't have to share my secrets with anyone, but I DO with some, and especially the readers of my blog.

So I'd PREFER not to get debated or argued with on points as if you, or anyone else, already knows better, or has it figured out, because I'm not only have a pretty quick, sharp mind, but I spend more time than most, and am passionate about, discovering the most unorthodox ways of using and combining things that others take for granted in their singular state.

I also factor in psychology.

One might think autosurfers click surf and walk away from their computer and never see the advertising. SOME...but then there are those of us who go off and answer email, or check the news or sports, and when the surf ad changes it pops to the surface. We see the ads.

Now what many of you reading cannot comprehend is that if I show my BLOG in the surf window for my advertised site, it registers ONE VIEW/VISIT at a Blog Directory. The more visits I get, the higher my site rises in the Blog Directory and the more visits I get from those visiting the BLOG directory who only look at the Top 10, and even more visits from those who only look at the Top 3.

That is just ONE way of using autosurfs. Many mid level marketers can, and have, figured that out for themselves, but many of my techniques are so advanced they can only be shared by someone who feels a sense of urgency such as having just paid something big to learn from me.

Some people get a glimpse of my madness and THEN the fun really begins because they are receptive, and not just telling me how they believe Google is better advertising than about ALL OF about COMBINING THEM? How about introducing other services that make the first services way more powerful?!

Now, other than the fact that autosurfs ARE sustainable if someone with a conscience set up a cool business model per my instructions, the fact that many aren't still places them ABOVE the plane where most people waste their money every day such as in scratch tickets, casinos and lottery, in general.

At least with Autosurf, everyone's "winning" and getting paid up to the point where it ends up mismanaged. You don't get that with gambling.

So let's snap out of it. The net provides mysterious possibilites beyond what ordinary imagination can conceive. Let's not approach this new world with our ordinary minds.

Your friend,
Here...Double Your Money.

Anonymous said...


You're forgetting another reason 12 Daily Pro doesn't pay out 12% daily. How many people out of 350,000 miss at least 1 day of surfing per cycle for one reason or another. Missing only 1 day reduces your returns significantly. Miss 4 days of the 12 and you lose money. I'll bet this factor brings the total daily return required of 12DP down below 2% on average.

One other point. At what point is the return figured? When the money is deposited into your payment processor account? Or is it when you transfer the EMO funds into your checking account and actually have full control over the money?

I also expected a Phase 2, and expected it to be closer to a sustainable 1.5%.


Sam Freedom said...

Hi Scott,

Good point, but for the record, that was my Point #2, check it out again. People forget. Someone said that would a poor business plan to bank on people forgetting, but they do. And since this industry literally had to SQUEEZE into the business world, factoring in things like that was just plain intelligent.

As for a phase 2, you and I had different ideas. I thought no payouts on surfing...but payouts on unleashing the first phase people to sell advertising. Just a straight up commission for product/services sold. Then they're definitely in the profit.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it when people put their grey matter to use. ;-)